Replies: 35 Comments
on Sunday, January 21st, anon said
?
on Friday, January 19th, Paul Dorrell said
All: I never intended this discussion to go so far in the direction of MLK, and his achievement, but I'm glad it did. The comments here are illuminative of both he and the issue.
Sure, the garb of nonconformity is almost a pose now, having more to do with appearance than content, and with partying than work. But everyone needs to identify with some group, and for many this clicks. Whether or not the rebel appearance leads to art creation is not for us to solve: history, and hindsight, solves all that stuff for us. Besides, with every notable art movement there have always been hangers-on who actually made up the greater body, but who did little of the work. This was as true of James Joyce's Paris, as it was of Michelango's Florence.
Nonconformity remains essential to the arts, no matter how it's dressed. I just happen to prefer when it's carried out intelligently, rather than with a drink in each hand, a reefer in the mouth, and a pill on the tongue.
P.S. We finished the sculpture install I referred to. This guy really earned his day in the sun. Click on my name above to see photos.
on Thursday, January 18th, olivier said
I have a dream moved me anytime it is played. This last speach do scare me, but I heard it only once and did not get all his content.
I beleive with all live with a set of value.
"don't forget to erase them from time to time to be creative"
on Thursday, January 18th, walt said
Olivier, just having a cause isn't enough. But to live every aspect of your life based on a set of values which then leads in MLK's life to the cause and then to litterally give your life for those values is integrity. His last sermon he prophesized his death. To listen to it is hear the fear and also the determination to go forward anyway. It is one of the most remarkable speeches of the last century. Maybe along side his I have a dream speech given earlier in Washington.
As Andrew said integrity is a variation of the word integral. To have integrity is to integrate all parts into one functioning entity. This is no small feat. While art as a discipline can help one to organize their lives that way it is not often that an artist has the kind of integrity that MLK had. Maybe John Lennon late in life. Maybe Marc Chagall. From what I know of his life he seemed to live his values, the joy of life, one finds in his work.
on Thursday, January 18th, olivier said
he had a cause, a legitimate one, is that what you call integrity?
on Thursday, January 18th, jose said
Just heard that US satyrist Art Buchwald died today. I believe he once said: "If you attack the establishment long enough and hard enough, they will make you a member of it."
on Thursday, January 18th, walt said
Paul, Yeah...my folks are socked in down in Tulsa. Just got off the phone with my mother. They finally got their drive way clear so they can make a run up to the grocery store. They've been in their house for a week now.
Ron. The more I learn about MLK the more I understand what integrity is. In comparison I am a poser.
on Thursday, January 18th, olivier said
ha ha ha, I like the *** PG censor.
sea, *** and sun
american you're fun
on Thursday, January 18th, olivier said
Here we are, where becoming non conformist look like a cliche of conformisme. In my opinion in our days complaining about politicians, mass/media/market, climate change, job difficulties, ***, food, money, human relations ect become very conforme to the norme. Is a hard working carveer with his very conservative views became the un conformiste of our generation? Possible! I thought we could create something new and exciting. Now I'm scare some kids are watching us
on Thursday, January 18th, Andrew said
A lot of times, the image you project becomes a useful tool to accomplish what you set out to do. If your goal is mapped out with integrity, then your means are less important. We often forget the root of the word integrity...it means remaining integral, rather than fragmented, the whole of your being united towards one single objective. That's where your students with a non conformist look conforming to a standard set by who-knows-who fail, Walt; their look isn't complemented by substance in their art.
on Thursday, January 18th, Brad said
Paul - if you write your document in a word processor and then cut and paste it in the aa text box - you have to re-enter any single (or double) hyphens or these 3 dots '...' - otherwise you'll get " can’t " and other scary stuff...
I'll comment separately... Thanks
on Wednesday, January 17th, Ron Massey said
Walter,
As is often usual, you've gathered things into a more succinct focus.Which brings us back to the man in the photo. Conformist or non- conformist ?,... is a question of little interest.He was someone burdened with more than above average integrity who simply in the circumstances couldn't possibly do other than he did.... and the issues he was dealing with I think you'll agree were far greater than any of the poses non-conformist or otherwise that artists then or now may think worth expending their energy on.
on Wednesday, January 17th, Paul Dorrell said
Walt: I'd gladly split hairs with you, but I spent all day prepping a one-ton sculpture for installation tomorrow--and it ain't exactly balmy in KC right now. Hence, I'm all done in. But at least I have the satisfaction of knowing that the piece will turn out brilliantly. It's by Brent Collins, for H&R Block. Images on my blog late tomorrow.
Best...
on Wednesday, January 17th, walt said
Paul,
In my usual splitting hairs mentality I suppose I make a differentiation between being a non-conformist and someone of integrity. When I use the term "non-conformist" I generally think of some of my students who make an great effort to look like an artist, dress like an artist and talk like an artist but who often talk the talk but do not walk the walk. In reality they are conforming to a style without content. Their c ommittement to their non-conformity is stronger than their committement to their art.
I think of self defined non-conformists as those who join small issue political parties, trends, alternative movements, as often as I do those who supposedly want to keep up with the Jones's by having the most current model of car, living in the right developement, joining the right clubs and wearing the right clothing. In my mind a non-conformist, and I once considered myself a non-conformist, is often simply being contrary for the sake of it becoming part of a group of other contrarians who understand and accept them...a form of conformism.
On the other hand someone with integrity may also join the right club if it is doing something worthwhile, wear the right clothes if they open doors to do something of value, drive the right car and live in the right neighborhood all because the car accomplishes what they need it to accomplish and the neighborhood is peaceful or exciting or gives access to the people they want access to whether these things are a small issue political party or one of the two dominant ones, a car that gets good mileage or one that provides comfort, a house they can afford in a neighborhood with access to the arts or culture of the city or one in the suburbs that allows for some peace and quiet, blah, blah, blah...you get the picture.
I think an artist who makes positive statements and expressions in their work are more valuable than those whose goal is simply to shock the viewer. I think quality is more valuable than a statement that tries to attack quality. I don't think all traditions are of value and that they do need to be revised from time to time but not just for the sake of change. Change should be relevent. I think an aesthetic is more valuable than an anti-aesthetic.
It all depends on ones values and how you keep it real. My values are integrally related to my life goals. Yours to your life goals. I can't judge yours unless they try to impinge upon mine.
Integrity is the act of being true to oneself and ones values and vision. Value is a matter of what you consider to be important in life. Values are based on the good of your family, friends and the general common good.
And "vision" as Jonathan Swift said "is the act of seeing what is invisible to others."
"its a mixed up, crazy, jumbled up world." --Ray Davies.
on Wednesday, January 17th, jose said
Great comment Lise. I think that as a musician the banality that predominates must be even harder to live with than in our plastic realm because the radio and television stations don't stop bombarding us with the stuff.
on Wednesday, January 17th, Walt said
Lise,
as Paul has said, Damn straight. My sentiments exactly. I'm waiting too. Maybe it'll happen in our lifetimes, probably not.
on Wednesday, January 17th, Lise said
I have often given this kind of topic a lot of thought because I am a musician as well as a visual artist. The music world has found me too non-conformist (not easily put into a genre or category, innovating on classical music, venues confused as to what to do) and the art world finds me too conservative (I relate more to the old world concept of artist such as working in many mediums, caring about the public and private realms, caring about using my talent for positive images/design/change rather than present day concerns of emoting, shock value, gag art, clever art, etc.).
If I was smart, I’d bend to the status quo. When I do bend, it makes a huge difference, in terms of money, opening doors, opening eyes… I have always said that people like what they know and if they don’t know it, they don’t think it is any good. Familiarity becomes the only critic.
The thing is, when you get to a certain age, you realize there’s not decades and decades ahead, so you’re naturally attracted to what really motivates you. Maybe for me, recognition for that work might be for other generations or when a fashion or trend changes in music or art. I have waited for a change, but things seem to get uglier and angrier and sounds that matter to much of our population in music mimics motors and crashing. I am waiting for the day when beauty is a virtue in art and where creativity in music is not just for "proven artists" like YoYo Ma. Perhaps the kind of art that motivates me becomes a virtue when times get hard for Americans.
To my eyes, when times are easy, we seem to become reckless with abandon in all aspects of our cultural life, so exposed to visual and sound stimuli that we are easily bored and take subtlety, beauty, fine craftsmanship and expertise for granted.
on Tuesday, January 16th, olivier said
Sorry Michael I'm being wrong in my reading! Yes they do, just cross the wall again they are plenty of others now. It just take more time... I know this wall thing.
on Tuesday, January 16th, olivier said
Paul, thanks your integrity honnor you, your detachment too. Life is too serious to be taken seriously.
Now what is the point to be un/conformist to have the honors and admiration? Is really talent and/or success have anything to do with your "political" thing? Go behind the wall and ask them what they think about it. Unless being an artist is an unconformist statement, there is a lot of non sens for me. Thanks Jose your right as always.
You can be either way I will not block my door to anybody for being himself.. If you can prove me I'm wrong, even better you're my guest.
Now wasn't we suppose to speak about conformism and democracy too? That what you have wrong Jose, Paul is delicatly poisonous, and he like it.
ps I don't know the story arround this Pollock girl?? Is there any dripping involve?
on Tuesday, January 16th, Paul Dorrell said
Walt: Damn straight.
Olivier: Actually I do care. That's why I wrote this. Also you take the teasing very well--a good thing.
Andrew: Actually I can tell a lot about an artist by viewing their work. But I rarely mention it. That seems their business more than mine.
Peter: Highly individual. And that is a different, but no less relevant, discussion. But as you obviously realize, some of these things don't really need discussion.
Jose: It isn't nonsense, and you bloody well know it. Further you do it in English. Ask me to do the same in Portuguese.
Michael: Better-put than anything I've said today. Some good cases in point? The Russian writer Isaak Babel; the French poet/critic Guillaume Apollinaire; Jackson Pollock (whose work, typically, only realized great success after his demise; it's just unfortunate he took that girl with him).
on Tuesday, January 16th, Michael Fornadley said
The plain truth of the matter nonconformists general pay a high price with their convictions. Really takes a leap of faith to put yourself in that kind of peril, our basic nature is to take the easy and comfortable road to travel. We know the famous ones through history, but consider the ones who challenged conformity and were forgotten. In other words don't expect honors and admiration when you start stepping on the conformist's feet.
on Tuesday, January 16th, jose said
Thanks for your answer Olivier, no hard feelings mon ami. I just wasn’t used to you being so inaccurate. Funny, yes, but not inaccurate. You are in a sense right, to go for non conformism now can be seen as conformism – we have bent all the rules, everything is upside down.
I took non conformism to mean possessing integrity and attitude in a time when these are hard to come across. That was what I was referring to when I said that non conformism was essential, because I though that was what Paul had meant. Integrity and attitude are the backbone of honesty, which I agree with Bill entirely, we must allow to be our guide. Increasingly, however, these two things are not well taken in our modern societies because integrity and attitude clash with what society wants from us which is for us to be ‘nice little boys and girls’ who’ll play quietly with our colour box in the corner if we want to live in hope of being selected by the kind gentleman who curates the important exhibition.
As Peter rightly says, the issue of conforming or not conforming to the norm is not essential to create a painting or a sculpture or an installation - the question certainly isn’t present when we are doing it – But surely, deep down, we know what Paul is pointing at and if we look at our own lives we’ll find examples of how, in little ways, we deviate from what the majority of the masses does. And I’m not talking of elitism here, I’m saying: come on you guys, we do tend to see things differently and we do step on some peoples toes occasionally if we stand up to our beliefs – if we do not conform to what the nice little gentleman expects of us.
Paul, that’s nonsense. I wish I had your capacity for synthesis and keeping things focused and short. Besides, by the way this is going, after the last three blogs my next one is quickly becoming redundant.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Peter Hey said
As an artist I do not want to define myself in this way. I don't think this is relevant for artisthood, as well I think this is more about lifestyle and 'upgrading' the artist which might be smart fot commercial and marketing purposes. However the real, true and/or pure artist does that need either. Important for the artistic development are to me a critical mind, awareness, objectivity, and a strong mind and character.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Andrew said
It seems like we're headed toward talking about how we feel about ourselves. On Friday, I'm flying to Istanbul. Now, saying that creates an impression of who and what I am, doesn't it? The question becomes whether I'm deliberately creating an image to appear to be something, or whether I am something. The real thing, or a poser? We all want to believe we're special, and in our own way, each of us is. Like Bill said back in the begining, integrity and honesty play principle roles in being, while superficial appearances are just sprigs of parsley on one side of the plate. They look good, but don't change the way the food's been cooked.
In the end, your work shows what you're made of. Paul, I bet you can read a person's soul by looking at the work they do. Does it complement the artist's statement?
on Tuesday, January 16th, olivier said
Gabriella: why?
Paul: do you really care?
on Tuesday, January 16th, walt said
I don't have any piercings or tatoos. Hey I guess that makes me a non-conformist! Cool.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Paul Dorrell said
Gabriella: Stated like a true nonconformist.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Paul Dorrell said
Olivier: Ah-hah! I always knew you were a conformiste at heart. I mean, excuse me, the other way around.
Bill: You point out something essential: too much conformity, not a good thing; too much nonconformity, not a good thing. A balance somewhere therein? Sure, just leaning toward the latter in my book.
Jose: Olivier's always getting off the point. That's what's so charming about him. What is fascinating about you is that your blogs, and responses, are normally better thought-out than mine. Damnit.
Mark: Actually I am both too. Depends on which hat I'm wearing: art dealer, writer, father...
Andrew: I think when I was younger I was that true non-conformist, and it was a helluva lot of fun, passion, confusion, etc. But when a family and their needs came into the picture, things changed a bit--though not greatly. I am still that same rebel, I just wear my tattoo beneath my shirt sleeve. In that way my clients--the ones who help support my artists--are more willing to write us checks. They like the sense of rebellion and uniqueness, as long as they know that the business will be conducted professionally. A minor concession on our part.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Gabriella Morrison said
Who really cares?
on Tuesday, January 16th, olivier said
Don't be sorry Jose, I will have done the same kind of answer to my comment. You proved to be a open healphy minded good writter. We and I are so closed here on our own stereotyped convictions , I envie your world witch seems to me to be much larger.
Yes your right, even if I was very young in the Algerian pull out, French did all of that and much more. I lived and am a Canadian part of it is due to the integration problems. How far back should we go to be all brothers? (As a teen I fight with my older brothers too). Now I beleive it is the easy way to judge by the history in all of us. What is more interresting and perhaps make all of us more special is the capacity we have to learn from it (history/background). I do not know anybody who didn't make any mistakes I just notice some who had more abality to learn in a postive way from them.
Switzerland and Luxembourg have been pretty peacefull it's right, they are probably the more close society today in Europe. Austria a country where I spent a lot of time and fall in love at an early stage is also the contry where I saw the worst in humanity, it still hunt me.
Away from these juvenil generalities and back to Paul blogs. I feel it is so conformist to call ourself unconformist, that was my point. I can't remember this nobel guy on the photo ever did that to himself, society did. It is like an artist who call himself a master in our modern meaning. Dali did, I did, other think of it; it leave in my mouth a strange taste of contradiction. Or is it just a matter of humour?
on Tuesday, January 16th, Andrew said
Paul, there's a thing that's happened of late that you refer to commenting on piercings and tattoos. The glamour and attractiveness of being seen as cutting edge, or non conformist. What people see as the essence of non-conformism isn't, simply because it's very character is of trying out the completely new. How then, could people find in non conformism, something that they recognize?
Non conformism is going against the trend, not with it as it is with piercings and tattoos. When you don't conform, you break new ground, you cut a trail through the brush that others may or may not follow. To be a political liberal or conservative is each as conformist as the other. Society needs those who will examine each issue, each proposal, no matter which side it comes from, and form a judgement based on reasoning and not on bias. Art is very political, with both sides saying, 'you're either with us, or against us,' The true non-conformist pleases almost no one, but strives with confidence to please himself.
on Tuesday, January 16th, mark said
If you saw me walking down my road in denim jacket and rounded crown, wide brimmed hat with its Native American (Indian) hat band and my pastel pack hanging from my shoulder you might think me a noncomformist. If you stopped to talk to me you might think the same thing, or if you saw me at a reception, No Tie thank you, you might not be able not to tell. I think we are all to complex to say we are one or the other. I am both.
on Tuesday, January 16th, jose said
Paul, healthy questioning and occasional pointing of the finger at was has gone wrong is the task of the artist. Either directly or indirectly through our work we try to make people look at things in a different way. We are loved for it and we are hated for it, but I agree with you, non-conformism is essential to a healthy society in democracy.
Olivier, I don’t wish to start an argument here that has nothing to do with Paul’s blog, but that response of yours is a bit odd and beside the point. Either you were born way after France pulled out o Algeria or you have been living away from France for too long. Or you are just playing silly to unsettle us here and be non-conformist. But, and this is a big ‘but’, are you telling us that the war in Congo, for instance, had nothing to do with Africans and that France was not involved? The Belgians fared a little worse than the French, I’ll grant you that, but that does not exempt the French from what happened. In fact no western European country apart perhaps from the Nordic ones, the tiny principalities, Luxembourg, Switzerland and Austria can walk away from colonialism unscathed. Are we to believe from your words that France today is the only country in Europe not facing problems of integration? Sorry to have to contradict you.
on Tuesday, January 16th, Bill said
Paul, I congratulate you on a wonderful article. I think you have pointed out quite clearly a negative trend in popular culture today. If everyone loves you, then perhaps you are not living up to your responsibility as an artist. Hungry artists are many times the most creative. We must be cautious of not striving too much for commercial success. We must also however be cautious of following the road of nonconformity blindly. Honesty and integrity must be our guide. Sometimes it will be popular, while other times not. Again, thank you for your inspirational words...
on Monday, January 15th, olivier said
thanks I am so "conformiste"! euh what's the question again? I'm french we don't have problem with negro, they are our friends. We don't like violence, that's it! Be peacefull it will work out specially on Martin anniversary day
As an artist, do you define yourself as a nonconformist or a conformist? I feel you can be either. There is no written rule that says you have to be radically dressed, tattooed and pierced, and to the left of center to dwell in the art world. All you have to be is open-minded. If you can’t be that, at least be bloody good at what you do. Chances are though, if you were born an artist you were also in some measure born a nonconformist. This is something you won’t be able to help, and shouldn’t want to.
