Replies: 63 Comments
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on Saturday, June 17th, Paul Dorrell said
O.P. Joshi: You go to our website, www.leopoldgallery.com. Submission information is there.
Best,
PD
on Friday, June 16th, O.P.Joshi said
Dear Sir,
Please tell us how I should send my paintings to you for your Gallery.
O.P.Joshi
on Tuesday, June 13th, olivier said
OH OH, Andrew called for Karen, Karen is here now we have to be quiet... Hello Karen... I don't know you but it's nice to meet you here. I am the one who write english like a spanish cow. Anyway we have one thing in common, you like moto cross.?? I was passionate when I was young, competition ect...
Oups sorry Paul, back to rhe subject.
Thanks Andrew, I did read about this toll in a traduction of a Italian book on the golden number, but never saw it. You're passionate about these and as a formal furniture restore I understand it very well. Specially in Italie where you can find old specially well craft state of the art tools..
What did we spoke about? OK I leave you see you later
on Tuesday, June 13th, Paul Dorrell said
Karen: Glad I can be of use. Sometimes Go-For-Broke is the only way; it allows you to live with yourself, especially those who have no choice. The trick is making the living. Ah well, far easier here than in Iraq--even in the arts.
Nice site. Production. I take it you're based in CA. I'm finishing the final draft of a screenplay myself. Feel the time is right for this story to come out, and am very juiced about it. I write in the early hours, before the phone begins to ring. Tell you about it sometime. Good luck with your own stuff. It seems you're on a good, though challenging, road. Well, what are the arts without a challenge?
Andrew, Olivier and Walt: You don't need nothin from me; you guys got it down.
on Tuesday, June 13th, andrew said
Olivier, the point system...you can transfer a one to one model to stone with a pantograph tool, a sort of swiveling arm that mounts to both the sculpture stone and the model using the same three fixed points, and then swiveling around to find points just about anywhere. I like to find them on ridges, in a row, like on an eyebrow, or the protrusion of the last rib. If you want to enlarge, you use a different system altogether. You make a right triangle, the dimensions of which are the short side for the model (smaller), and the long side for the sculpture. The size of this triangle, usually drawn on a flat sheet of marble, perhaps even inscribed so it doesn't fade away, is the longest dimension of the model and the same of the sculpture. This is so you can get any measurement in between. Measurements are not done with a ruler, but with calipers;...no numbers to screw up. So the distance of say, a point on the end of the nose to the dimple, on a six inch model going to be a 12 inch sculpture, is always twice what the same distance on the model is. You measure it once, stretch the calipers to double the length, and then go find that distance on the stone. All these points cover the surface of the model, and in plaster model museums, make the pieces look like they have measles with all the spots. To get any distance right in three dimensions, you have to measure it again from another plane, and then triangulate. You draw an arc with the calipers from one direction, then another from the other plane. Where the two curved lines intersect, that's your point. But you may have to dig to find it. Once found, you mark it not using a drill, but a tiny curved chisel, which you rotate between your palms to make a little dent. Put a pencil mark in it, and move on to the next point.
on Tuesday, June 13th, Karen said
Very touched & inspired, Paul, by your determination & fortitude. Your go for broke attitude I'm sure was criticized (as has mine) but one's got to pursue their passion or else live in regret. While I do hack out marketing materials, websites & whatever else pays the bills so I can write & shoot; I alway wonder if I will get beyond survival. Your candid sharing has given me strength. Thanks so much for taking the time to share!
on Tuesday, June 13th, olivier said
Sorry Walt, they hold the guillotine, in any case they initiate the revolution.The Bastille was the area of the craft maker, ans still is, all start there. I beleive when you work too long on a piece you become crasy or nervous, they said they wanted more money.
on Tuesday, June 13th, olivier said
Andrew, thank's for the carver lessom ,it is very interesting. I never completly understand the "point system". Do you use a drill for it, with measurement from a same size block out of your clay model?
I also agree with the need today for gallery artist to bring the merchandise where there is a market for it. I did the same with my antiques, when I closed 3 shops in Paris to do only shows. If I was sucessful before I start to do money with this option. And when a show goes down, you just go somewhere else. Markey always fluctuate.
We have a sucessful galery in Toronto who does a lot of shows in North America and Europe. Including the hot one in Madrid. I agree it is expensive. But for me I had the opportunity to access the hot Madison and Park market at a price far lower than a rent on 57th Street/Madison, and a limited risk. Many of great customer I still have. Location!
on Tuesday, June 13th, walt said
Tom- by the way, the last generation to dis labor got their heads chopped off. Viva la guillotine!
on Tuesday, June 13th, walt said
Thanks Andrew. I won't be so forgiving to sculptors now.
on Tuesday, June 13th, Tom said
Andy Warhol said that if you can't make it quick then don't make it. He was the premeir marketer. It makes perfect sense in these days. No one appreciates labor. The old ways are just that, OLD!
on Tuesday, June 13th, josé freitas cruz said
Andrew, that's a very useful business tool, not only for galleries but also for us. I’ve used it often as an artist but also when I was running a gallery back in 2000. At one point, for myself, I accepted six predated cheques for an especially big sale of 5 of my larger canvases. At the gallery I would call the artist in question to get his agreement first and then establish the best way of paying him his chunk of the deal as quickly as possible. I discovered that very often the artists would agree to this arrangement, though sometimes I had to put up with the occasional arrogant and short-sighted upstart – surprisingly those who sold better and more often!
on Tuesday, June 13th, andrew said
Walt, traditionally modeled stone sculpture is made by first making a model in plaster, possibly from a clay, and then copying it into marble using the point system. This allows you to develop and change ideas in clay, and then be sure you're going to get exactly the same thing in stone. I say 'traditional' because free carving is considered by professionals to be a sign of dilitant status. I use combinations, or free carve. Apart from that, the idea that 'one slip, and you've ruined it' is a myth. On faces, you always leave stone at the back of the head, so if a nose breaks off, you have enough depth to carve a new face a little deeper. Then you do the hair last. On delicate, breakable parts, like ears, you use abrasives rather than chisels, so the process becomes slower, and safer. There's a certain Hollywood romance to the idea that you can ruin a piece with a single stroke gone wrong, but stone carvers with experience know you can fix anything, and finish with a piece that's great anyway. Apollo and Daphne, Bernini, with all those leaves? I'm absolutely certain some of them fell off!
Elsie, for a piece that takes a month to finish, $18.000 is a lot of money. ('Birth') There are carvers out there that could do them in two weeks. I'm not suprised you have trouble selling them. There are similar pieces on the market for five, six thousand dollars and very competent artists have difficulty selling those. I know I'm being blunt, but when I find someone who'll tell me what they REALLY think, I tend to go back and ask for more.
Paul, I have a thought for you. What about selling where the client pays over time? That's what all those people with the Porsches and Jaguars do. For myself, it seems to have worked in many cases, and let people buy who otherwise couldn't have. I'm not talking about letting them pay with a credit card...I mean, let them have the piece, and pay as they can.
on Tuesday, June 13th, Ruth Olivar Millan said
Paul, Thank you so much for the insite. I paint because I have too even if it means going without food to afford paint or giving my work away in exchange for basics of living. I really admire people that can make a living from their art sales.....the marketing part is incredible work and draining. If and when I do sell a painting or sculpture a part of me leaves with it. Sounds egotistical of me to think that I could actually live and support myself financially with my paint brush between my teeth. History has taught me that artists much greater then I, have never sold paintings, yet their spirit enfluence our evolution. PEACE
on Monday, June 12th, Walt said
Elfie,
Michelangelo felt the same way about sculpture and painting. There certainly are differences in outlay and preparation. I can walk up into my studio and begin a painting without much forethought. And maybe it takes me several months to figure it out but if I ruin it several times I can still save it. Not so with a sculpture. At least not a traditionally modeled sculpture. At some point the stone has been chipped away and there isn't anything to do about it but start over. You've lost the stone, the time and by that point possibly the inspiration. But you still have to clean up the chips before you lock the doors and go home.
on Monday, June 12th, Elfie Harris said
Some of us try to make a living from our art because we are artists and have so little choice that it becomes none. Because our art is the only thing that satisfies us and working on anything else is like living with a mate you dislike when you know that the one you love is in the house next door. The problem often is that it is so terribly difficult to make money selling art and, in my case, especially selling stone sculpture.
One question that has not come up in the discussion yet about marketing is the difference between doing it to be “known” and doing it to sell. Sometimes the two go hand in hand but not always. Being known could come a long time before sales and the other way around also.
Personally I hate putting the time into selling and have just recently been able to fully emotionally detach that part of my “artistic” life from my art which has been a big relief. I do not believe artists should put any time into marketing if they don’t have to but if they must then they need to have a good way to figure out what time and resources to invest and a heck of a lot more gallery owners who understand that what goes into producing an oil painting is not the same as what goes into producing a bronze or a marble sculpture (or what goes into moving or showing it either.)
I don’t think any artist has ever been great without both great talent and huge and continual effort.
Lelia, that is the day job, the stuff that consumers use. It’s not the same thing.
on Monday, June 12th, Paul Dorrell said
Tonia, Spanks. Just trying to share knowledge, and the only way I know of doing that is through reasonable candor--including divulsion of some (but not all) of my mistakes as a younger dealer.
Lelia, Very insightful. I don't know as I disagree with a single thing you've said. For further insight, you might try dumping your life-savings into a gallery and opening it in a bout of ill-informed enthusiasm, but I'm not sure I'd recommend that. Just keep painting and writing instead; you seem to do both well.
on Monday, June 12th, Lelia Katherine Thom said
This was an interesting entry, but I have to say I don't agree on some things. To be realistic, very few artistically talented individuals can (or should) live off of their income as an artist, especially those who are solely into traditional mediums, which means you're putting money back into the art almost constantly, unlike in most digital painting. Moreover, I think trying to live off of your artistic income also pushes you to levels of unnecessary stress that may affect not only your art, but your health and relationships. That said, I hardly know why anyone who isn't making a VERY consistent high-level income from their art would even want to try.
I think people do enjoy and purchase art, too, but they purchase mass produced, already well known works. One need only look at the prints that are frequently bought online and in stores. You won't find many modern day artists with prints selling, much less the original artwork. That, ironically, might be the fault of education! We learn about the masters, but modern artists are quite often forgotten. It has been this way for centuries. And, too, to be morbidly honest, people who can afford purchasing original artwork might be left with the question of, "Do I want to put my money and/or investment into an unknown, modern artist or a well-known master of the past?" The answer is simple.
There's also the issue of functionality. I think most people love art for its appearance, etc., but unless they're purchasing [again, well-established] pieces for investment or have money to blow, most will not purchase original art frequently, especially if it's at a high price for commission or otherwise. People, and companies, for that matter, are more likely to purchase something that they can readily use, such as web design or advertisements or art for playing cards, etc.
I say all this in the thoughts that artists should think as much as consumers as they should creatively. There are only so many walls to have your artwork hung on, no matter the marketing of it.
on Monday, June 12th, Tonia Osborn said
Paul D,
As a working artist and gallery owner, I can relate to all your thoughts. I really appreciate you and the fellow bloggers taking the time to share your experiences. All this information really does help in creating a better market for both artists and gallery owners. It really is a tough market to swim in and not all of us are sharks;) It takes passion and pure endurance to work the hours required in making a gallery and its artists successful. So my hats off to you Mr. Dorrell for finding the time to even sit and address the issue.
on Sunday, June 11th, olivier said
Andrew: I'd like your apprentice who does you studio and you head at the same time. I beleive a state of organisation to reflect your personality, nothing to do in my sens with what you called "talent". Many artist has been and will always be messy, others just cannot support it. You can see it in their work.
Don't be defensive Walt, it is a lost of time here only if you see it that way. Did you realize how much the critics, the media has lost power in the recent time? How many movies did great at the box office after a terrible report by the expert. A lot is happening here today, even if we don't know yet how to work with it in the best way. Most od my friends who bought art recently went to google the artist before doing any decision. Check what has been said to them, learn more. We all agree the quality of the critic has lost a bit of substantial information, but it is there, and we all use it, even to buy a fridge.
on Sunday, June 11th, walt said
Ah...Andrew, you've proven my point. I write in between doing other things--while I'm waiting for something to dry or like right now I'm waiting for a meeting to begin. I really don't spend much wasted time anymore. I wasn't the one who suggested 70% towards marketing. I was just repeating something someone else said. And I really don't think being a good marketer makes you a better artist. It can or it can cause one to pander completely to the market with no sense of ones own integrity as to what ones art is about. Being a good marketer, if you are also a great artist just means the chances of not having to wait until one is dead to have some success is more likely.
Olivier, we must get past every great artist who came before us...but we must not forget one of them lest we repeat them. I like what Matisse used to say..."if Cezanne is right then I am right." Matisse owned a small Cezanne. One of the bathers studies. You can see how completely he absorbed Cezannes sense of color before he resolved his own. And in the end Matisse's color was his own.
on Sunday, June 11th, olivier said
I think a party, a group is always a nourishing thing if you feel devoted in. Building a network is far ahead than isolationism. Now I play with the pool. So far I don't think I will reach so many enthousiasm comments, even if I will get comment at all. Can we find a language universal? For sure we are all leader in a way, sometime it is just more difficult to point out. You are also in an open space here, let's valorise ourself. Keep the flagelation for the time when you and me will share this martini. By the way I have no more left, you have some?
on Sunday, June 11th, Andrew said
Walter, you have said in the past that the artist should be educated to be aware of the economics of his profession. I don't believe that makes you a worse artist, on the contrary, it makes you a better one. You don't need to spend 70% of your time marketing, it's enough to spend as much time as we spend here at Absolutearts. And all of us who are writing here have shown they can afford to do that, hopefully, without detracting from the quality of their art. Efficiency is the key...not to waste time on unproductive things. That goes double for the work we do. Experimentation is fine, but ration the time you spend on it, and use what you discover to finish those unfinished artworks. Clear out the studio, and clear your head at the same time. Of course I could never do that myself, but I had an apprentice once who made me do it. Karen, where are you today?
on Sunday, June 11th, Michael Fornadley said
Walter has brought up a interesting point about two of the heavy hitters of the 20th century. Their personalities would never qualify them for marketing, both were socially unacceptable and I am afraid would never of made it in todays fine arts marketplace. They voices their opinions and would try to hurt you physically if they disagreed with you, let alone a real disfunctional relationship with family and friends. If they were in fact the "Slick Willys" that seem to control the marketing end of their careers their art would not be good or lasting. Are the so called successful artist today more gifted in the selling profession than their actual art making, could it possibly be true, the gift of saying the right things over any talent or skill.
The study of Cezanne or Van Gogh will show both died considering themselves failures, for the most part ignored by the higher art establishments and other successful artists. It is a pity that they did not live enought to see or enjoy the fruits of their influence with todays's artists. Neither one could support themselves as artists, Van Gogh supported by his brother and Cezanne lived off his inheritance.
on Sunday, June 11th, Paul Dorrell said
Walt, I don't think marketing would have helped Van Gogh, since he was so far ahead of his time. Besides, Theo, a successful art dealer, tried very hard to sell the paintings through the gallery chain he worked for, Goupil & Cie, but no dice. For the artist, I feel it's best to concentrate most on one's art, and try to find a dealer who will do the marketing. But even when you find that person, you'll have to do more than just create, as Picasso knew very well, and very shrewdly.
Olivier, I'm so pleased that we've formed a party--no I don't mean the martini kind, though that will come later. So, this is a liberal party? Very good. And you will be Chief? Even better; you'd make a much better leader than I.
on Sunday, June 11th, olivier said
Another one:
We have a party now. Let's be democratic. Who vote to put Picasso to retirement? I have enought of this celebration, and I am in the lot, celebration of expensive art. It's too easy. I have enought of seing always the same figure in politic, in art, ect...Let's move on. When Pablo was affordable, he also had a lot of criticism by the majority of collectors,artists. It was a different time, the money was not share like it is today. A few with money had way too much. I had a grand father who bought art sent by the post, most of them he never opened the package. That's how I become an antique dealer, finding great staff in the attic at 10 and selling it to buy gum. Today customer at every level when they spent they make an investisment. Picasso, Van Gogh reach the top price, everybody love them. Tomorow it will be us, just push them out.
Ok I have to work.
on Sunday, June 11th, olivier said
You are right Walt, Cezanne was the inspiration of all the modern painters, Picasso included. A sucessful revolution.
Fine or not fine? What's the point? Do you want to say to everybody that what we are doing is not as good as it get? Let the artist dream! Let the collector dream! We don't need a more rational world we have enought of it. Yes I claim it high :my art is FINE ART! My mission is to create master pieces. You like it or not that's the reason of such an energy I put my creativity. Leave it there, history will judge me. Like that I know even if I die, I will die with my dreams...
on Sunday, June 11th, olivier said
Come on Paul such a party doesn't exist yet, even in France, otherwise you will be already leader in it.
Let's create it: I will start will a circle a little bit smaller than a soccer ball, old red circle as the root, Venetian red will be good. Going from there seven sharp green triangles. Not really triangle, they start in a sharp angle from my red ball to finish in another larger circle having the red as the center. In each of these "triangles" a star, at the outside close to the larger circle. Seven stars as the Pleiades constellation. They are named: Alcyone, Asterope, Celaeno, Electre (another interesting one), Maia, Merope, and Taygete. Many civilisation had different attribute to this constellation. The Maya saw the virgin, the Grec saw the literature in these seven sisters, I see the creativity, the hope, ect... Three of these stars will be yellow (including the top one, a star little bit larger and more bright), two are red, two are blue. Between these green triangles I will keep the white. Surrounding it all will be this other circle: black it will be. Surlining the all figure. Hey Paul you are not a Saint.
Here is your base Paul, from there just move with the pool like they all do. But perhaps I should read your book first. Do you have a French translation?
on Sunday, June 11th, walt said
Should have said..."And that operative word 'Fine' begins when the artist devotes their time to developing their talent."
on Sunday, June 11th, walt said
I hate to keep beating the same drum over and over but Paul, something you just said...
"Same with Van Gogh; had his sister-in-law not pushed his work and story so hard--for 20 years before it caught on--he'd be just another mildly recognized Dutch painter by now."
Suppose Van Gogh had taken some of our advice and spent say only 30% of his time painting and %70% of his time being a good business man marketing his work. Say he began this practice when he was just 2 years into his painting career. Now we know from history he wasn't particularly a "people" person...made lots of social faux pas...and often just plain pissed people off...in short, sales were not his strong skill. And maybe he even began to sell a few works for small bucks to local small time collectors. And knowing what it takes to build the momentum that a painter needs to realize their potential do you suppose he would have been able to produce the superior body of work he is known for? His body of work is the true signifier of a great painter, not how well known he is. He is well known because he created an amazing body of work, not the other way around. We can say the same of Cezanne.
This is the problem with these discussions sometimes. We get the cart before the horse. Even if Van Gogh had only spent %50 of his time marketing he would not have gotten to some of the most important works of his career like say Starry Night, or the Night Cafe. In fact he may never have left his early brown potato period which was certainly lovely and promising but not really what we know Van Gogh for. We know him for his later color works which helped influence the Fauves on to spectacular heights. And the Fauves influenced the Ab. Ex painters and the Color Field painters of the 50's and early 60's. By the way we could do the same comparison with Cezanne who certainly inspired Van Gogh and Gauguin with his late still life and landscape paintings. (And of course Cezanne's broken planes also inspired the Cubists.) Had he worried more about marketing than painting, would he have made those paintings later paintings that have had so much to do with modern painting? And would we even care? Cezannes early work is only interesting in that we see how he got to those late works. If he had marketed those early paintings more strenuously he may have gotten stuck in that mindset and we would never have had Willem de Kooning or Pollack or Diebenkorn, or even Warhol I dare say...in fact we may have gone right into the expressionist phase of modernism without the incredible formal achievements of a generation of incredibly defined aesthetics. It is that formal aesthetic that has driven the more primordial expression of modern art. Once it disapeared the spark was gone. Matisse warned us this would happen when young artists begin to believe they can start where the previous generation left off. What he was suggesting is that every generation has to rethink their way through what has been before to get to the next step.
An artist has to follow and develop the skills and natural tendancies given to them. This is that hard to define thing we call talent. Those things we are pre-wired to do. And by themselves they are nothing-- nearly indistinguishable from other forms of mediocrity.
We call it Fine Art because it is something that lives on rarified air. Most art looks generic today because we don't cultivate the Fine in art any longer. We argue that the mediocre is great because we don't want to seem non-egalitarian. So maybe we should just dispense with the term 'Fine Art' and just call it art with a little 'a' and nothing fine? There are a lot of people who are suggesting this idea. But if we do that we'd better burn everything that Van Gogh, Cezanne, Gauguin, Matisse, Braque and Picasso and hundreds of the greatest artists who ever lived before and after them or we'll always be looking over our shoulders waiting for one of them to point us out as the posiers we really have become.
Paul, you sugget that the relationship between gallery and artist is a partnership. Bravo! That's the right answer. I'm not working for you and you aren't working for me. We are both working together to bring the best we can to the collectors and eventually to the public at large. After all it is the collectors who preserve this stuff for posterity. That's their end of the partnership. And for their money (which preserves the artists and pays the dealers) they get to live with the stuff for a length of time before it goes into the public trust. It is an interdependant relationship. But if at any time we forget that the main point is the 'Fine' in art then we get a generation or more of mediocrity. And that begins when the artist devotes their time to developing their talent. If one of those talents is marketing then they will be like Warhol or Picasso both of which were totally in control of their marketing...or Ruebens who was so good at managemnet and negotiation that they made him a State Ambassador. Thank God they didn't make Van Gogh an Ambassador.
on Sunday, June 11th, ol-ga said
Come on...such people never show up. They are only brave to say something unpleasant inkognito.
on Saturday, June 10th, Paul Dorrell said
Hey Mush, that's cool. Tell us what you do that's so significant, other than criticize (not that that's significant; as Socrates pointed out, anyone can be a critic). I trust you create something of substance--meaning that you give more than you take. So please tell us, what is it? Or better yet, show us.
on Saturday, June 10th, Sandoze said
What a mush factory. Boring gallery writing boring blogs.
(yawn)
on Saturday, June 10th, Paul Dorrell said
Michael, believe me I dig your frustration. How many times, in the years before I was published, did I rant about the f-----g publishing business. In fact I tell the story in the book, right up to the night where I punched holes in our bedroom walls, so enraged was I with the lack of integrity, courage, and the overall shallowness.
Yet I was also wrong, since all those things do exist in publishing, they're just becoming more rare.
Critics? That's a good one. Yes, actually some critics are crooked, do accept perks, even bribes, to promote certain artists/galleries, and ignore others. I have known about this for a long time, but rarely discuss it, since as Mark Twain said, "You never pick fights with people who buy ink by the barrel." Those critics will deny it of course, but I ain't fooled. Or stupid.
In the end, if you're happy with your work, if it inspires you, if you feel genuine passion while creating it, then you have every reason to continue pursuing it. Besides, you ain't got no choice. Unfortunately, if you're really on your game, you're probably ahead of the curve regarding social response. So were Mozart, Gauguin, and Pollock. The answer? Take strength from that fact, do your gig, retain your dignity, acknowledge your courage, give to others what you can, and work until you die. Baby, sometimes that's as good as we get. I'll take that over compromising any day.
Olivier. Politics? Sure, I've been considering entering French politics. Which party do you advise I join, or disgrace?
on Saturday, June 10th, Michael Fornadley said
Paul, one of the best things about any rejection is our ability to move on and not to get bitter. Probadly vented too much in order to proof a point about my preception of the current art scene, guessing I pissed off most of the landscape artists in the country of France. By the way I love Cezanne's landscapes and any other painting he created, should of maybe clarify I hate "dumb" french landscapes. Back to the subject of Galleries, truth is they are not in the business of educating the buying public but trying to sell a product. My frustration would be more to the people who should know better, publicity is a major player with success in the arts. Very good exhibitions in the smaller non profit galleries are ignored and we get constantly feed "fluff" critical reviews from the accepted commercial galleries. You begin to wonder if there is money being placed under the table. In order to educate the public to different works you really need a advocate to develop critical thinking, the artists in my area a dying on the vine because they do not have it. Maybe we need more skilled art critics with enough guts to call it like it is, or at least voice a opinion without fear of offending the establishment, they are a very rare creature.
on Saturday, June 10th, olga said
Hmm...astute..Thanks, Paul, - new word for me! I am living here for about 8 years and still have to learn a lot.
on Saturday, June 10th, olivier said
Paul: you should consider politic. Admirable!
on Saturday, June 10th, Paul Dorrell said
Olga, I'll bet I know who you are: a fine Russian of astute character. A painter as well.
Michael, I share your frustration. As a writer I've refused to pen commercial works, which explains why it took me so long to get in print. As a dealer, I carry both semi-traditional and avant-garde works; you can guess which ones sell the best. These more conservative pieces are not commercial or shallow, but neither are they contemporary.
The more challenging work has always been hard to sell, since the time of Modigliani and Dove. Those dudes starved, but as usual, were revered late in life, and especially after death--but only because their dealers kept pushing the work. Same with Van Gogh; had his sister-in-law not pushed his work and story so hard--for 20 years before it caught on--he'd be just another mildly recognized Dutch painter by now.
Edgy, Raw or Provocative work is always hard to sell, even in NY, where the conservative stuff in Midtown far outsells anything in SoHo/Chelsea. You've chosen an admirable route, for which there are no easy answers, since the vast majority of collectors in any country tend toward representational work. But all things are possible, especially in the major cities; you might consider approaching galleries there. In the meantime, just work a day job that don't drive you nuts. In America, that's not so hard to do; in China, a different story.
Jose, I couldn't have given more sound advice; maybe you should write this column. Sure there are ways to use the consignment system to advantage. Just as good, as Andrew pointed out, is alternative spaces that charge no commission. I've used those many times over the years, and always will.
Olivier, you're quite a sage. Sure, the bottom line is work. I value that even over great talent, since from hard work you can refine your talent, but a great gift if not properly developed can disappear overnight--from dissipation, depression, or neglect. We've all seen that many times, eh?
on Saturday, June 10th, olivier said
You're right Jose bottom line is work in every aspect of our life. I don't trust all the one who said after sucess, oh we were drunk all the time, party,playing ect..You can work with fun but it was work the reality. Same for comedians.
The carrot Andrew is misinterpreted. I was saying that if I had a unknown gallery and I wanted to attract you. I will come with a very low commission on consignment, will pay all the cost, will advertise for you. Don't you will consider my offer even if my gallery is not the goal you are seeking for? On my side I will hope to attract new customers..
The french whatever landscape, Michael, is the same as what I always heard in my antique business. Everywhere. Yes they are easy sale since the common can understand it. I do have another name, an artist who make canadian pseudo "group of seven" landscape. They are cheap and sell pretty well. My goal, never more than 20 min on a small panel. Most of the time it is bowring, it is the game like in it. Gallien Laloue had 4 names, perhaps five they don't agree, in his career. But at the end not much money is done here. I have a friend in Paris who killed is second name in a car accident, they did a party for that occasion. In my antiques business money was done when I brought the pieces nobody saw before, or only in museum. Most of the time when a dealer said to me don't bring that here, it does not sale. That in particular was my sucess, because that whatever it is was selected for the quality. Everywhere they are some good customers. If you only exhibit the little landscape you will have the customers you deserve. The other one travel and know where to go. Anyway everybody travel today. Even me here on this blog. Get the staff, it take time but it work
on Saturday, June 10th, josé freitas cruz said
Paul, once again an interesting blog, though I must say the reality in the States differs greatly from the one I’m familiar with in Europe and so I don’t really know if what I’m about to write really relates to many of you.
If, as an artist, what you really want is to be in a gallery [and at certain stages in your career it is necessary], I think consignment is not such a bad thing in itself, quite on the contrary. Here in Europe, as Andrew has pointed out, it’s an equitable means by which unknown artists can gain access to a gallery while each of the parties waits for developments to unravel before deciding on a stronger commitment [or not].
Like everything else, and again, if being in a gallery is what you aspire to, it boils down to good relationship skills and regular monitoring, in other words WORK – more work! If you ache to be in it and you believe this is the only way you are going to climb the next step in the ladder it is useful work for you [and you alone]. If not – if you have seen and been through all the crap – and you insist on going down that road when other options are at hand, than, my friends it is a useless waste of time and effort.
At a certain stage in your career, gallery venues on your CV not only look good but they help open up other opportunities [collective exhibitions, art awards… ], which in turn open up the doors to other galleries. Selling your art - the making money bit - is not all there is to it. Extremely important, yes, but you have to be aware of how you go about it. Selling a fair deal of it effortlessly, without the aid of galleries and agents, can be a blessing and a curse.
I’m sure all of us could write our own best-seller on all the crap we go through at those stages in our careers when we’re trying to get a good venue on our CVs. I won’t add my personal favourites. However, personally, I have to admit that I felt more comfortable working under the consignment policy [usually 30%] than being ‘tied down’ to a gallery as some of my friends were. With time this led them to see that I sold them a good amount of paintings and we would agree on an exhibition [50%, only once 60%], plus it allowed me greater mobility, greater freedom to create the art that I wanted, and greater control over my own career. To be quite frank I see exclusivity with a gallery as a pact with the devil. I prefer to keep myself in a position where I can use them, just as they use us, without giving over too much power over my destiny. I allow our relationship to go on as long as it remains equitable and harmonious – no longer and no further.
Perhaps we don’t see this in the beginning stages, but one of the benefits of wandering through no-man's-land and keeping at it for a long stretch is that you slowly reach a place where you start to get a sense that you can invert the burden. I’ve stopped investing so much of my energy in landing a gallery. I’ve done the work that has to be done: created the art and left my portfolio cd-rom with galleries and art institutions and I only talk to those who respond. I let the art do the talking. Beyond that I focus on the art and on working with artists I respect and like being around. Especially today, in those in-between moments between galleries and art awards, we have increasing options at are disposal to make ourselves seen and known – Andrew hinted at them in Paul’s previous blog: events – focus on creating and participating in events.
Keep up the good work at the studio, keep using the consignment policy astutely every now and then, build up your career with a few venues in galleries and participation in group shows/awards but most importantly generate your own dynamics, alone or together with a group of artists. Very soon you’ll be having the galleries coming to your studio and, if you are wise and remain cool, you will be on your own turf, negotiating your own terms. I’ve seen it happen, more than once.
on Saturday, June 10th, Michael Fornadley said
Commercial galleries are fine and dandy, but what is an artist to do if they are producting work that is not marketable. Do they compromise their work to sell, officially dumbing down to the level of the audience. What happens to the artist who does not play it safe and creates difficult and challenging works and can not change due to their nature?
I have never approached a commercial gallery with the intent to display my work because in my area it would never sell. Have always done jury or non profits gatherings were I would be more likely to find like minded artists. Truth be known that most of the marketable works that are being sold in these commercial galleries are easy, unchallenging and dumb works. Frankly folks that is what works if you want to be fashionally marketable. Brain dead painting for a brain dead public bottom line. Here in the Columbus, Ohio area it is french landscapes, pretty glass sculpture and knock offs of the lastest trend of New York works that are currently selling. People there has to be more to this art making then taking the easy way out!
Never made my living with my art and have been doing it for about twenty years now. Timing is everything and I put other properties ahead of marketing my art. The creating part of this art business is what has always excited me, marketing is a chore, a very time and resource consuming one at that. Would be great if every artist could support themselves and create without consideration of whether it will sell. Solution is to find a good day job and never quit. Maybe we should be considering the work produced instead of the facade of the stereotypical professional artist. Could get us away from the snobery and elitism associated with the "real" arts, we are not really fooling anybody except ourselves, boring!
on Saturday, June 10th, Andrew said
Olivier, the thirty percent wasn't a carrot on a stick to bring in the big carver. It is standard business practice here for consignment of artwork, and I am, as I said before, an absolute nobody compared to their other artists. But Paul, the insurance is another thing. There isn't any. I accepted that because the piece is too big to steal, and I judged the place to be safe. It would take a pro a minimum of three hours to disassemble and get it out of the gallery, and they'd need to crate it and have a truck with a crane. Like I will to set it up this Thursday!
on Friday, June 9th, olga said
Paul, thanks for the explanation. As for your question, I do not know who I am:). I also cook every day and wash dishes - maybe I am a dishwasher...
on Friday, June 9th, Paul Dorrell said
Man, I can't keep up with you cats.
Walt, I work for both the artist and the collector (and my family; rather important, that). I can't make a living without strong talent, or without my clients. Hence both must be treated with respect--assuming they earn as much.
Believe me, I'm familiar with the snob scene where the gallery acts like they're doing you a favor to take on your work (publishers and agents are sometimes similar). This is utter BS. It is also bad karma. No one is superior to anyone else; we all just have different talents (and faults). Unfortunately the snob approach is dominant, especially in the large cities. It's mainly based in insecurity, so don't be fooled. With or without that, there are plenty of dealers who have integrity, humility, and compassion. Seek them out; they're the ones who tend to endure. Me? I intend to help change the prevailing attitude.
In my gallery we have our squabbles, our disagreements, but still we are family. Sure it is business first, and I keep everything on a business footing, but when an artist joins us, they become part of the family. And I don't mean of the dysfunctional sort.
Andrew, I frankly wasn't aware of the percentage difference in Europe, although I'm well aware of the cultural difference. Well, the Europeans have a 2000-year jump on us where culture is concerned (although not democracy). It sounds like the deal you struck is quite favorable. Actually I often help place my artists in galleries where, at the beginning, they are among the low-priced. Why? Because later they may well become among the high-priced, assuming they have the talent and drive to get there.
Olivier, Your wisdom is profound. You understand how to read a face, and a vibration. I have no words to add to that.
ol-ga, A consignment is where you leave artwork with a gallery, under a signed agreement, wherein they insure the work, sell it, and pay you on time--if all goes well; sometime you have to monitor. A commission is the percentage a gallery charges for selling the consigned work; normally this is 50%.
So what are you first? Scientist or artist?
on Friday, June 9th, ol-ga said
Very interesting blogs and discussions, Paul. Thanks to all of you. Could someone of you tell me the definition on consignment? As far as I understand it's different from comissions. Right? Sorry for this question - half of my life I was (and I hope still is) a scientist.
on Friday, June 9th, olivier said
sorry Andrew: right,ect..
on Friday, June 9th, olivier said
You're wright Walt. A gallery work for his customers, the one who pay you. As an artist I work for the gallery, the collectors, any one who pay me.
Even if I think I am too much in advance for you.That's the kind of risk I took with antiques, risk witch brought me to a high international scene. Getting a sense of what going on and anticipate (action). Making money always been a chalenging one, with joy and disapointment. History will only keep the sucessful one.
Morality: if you offer me a percentage, a buying price, if your numbers are wright you have a deal. It's a business world isn't it?
on Friday, June 9th, olivier said
I pass on the gallery who does not paid the artist or whatever, in every business there are some bad one. These ones usually don’t stay long. I always believe people to be honest; until they prove me I am wrong. Once I gave a 9000 pieces of antiques to a customer on a show who did not have an ID or a bank check, I just get a phone number. Two weeks later my check arrived from the post.
Anyway, the more I think about negotiable percentage the more I think its right. If I had a gallery I will try to get more exposure to expand. Two ways: the shows or the big name. Shows are great but with lots of expenses, if the good one is too far away, it's not sure you will keep many contact. I will start with the artist important enough for my gallery to go above the average in order to bring the serious buyer to know me. Look Andrew. Contact a good artist and give him a carrot: no risk. I will pay for a good advertising and give him an offer than he cannot refuse. All artists like money. Isn't it? From there you attract a real interest on you gallery. Hey he is the one who expose the big carver. Then like every business you have to treat the big pockets as they expect and you can even get their trust to buy your regular artist.
on Friday, June 9th, Andrew said
Here's another one for you. Percentages. This week, I'm putting a piece in an Italian gallery that handles only famous artists. That makes me the low man on the totem poll, and unlikely to have my work bought instead of consigned. But get this...if they buy they want fifty percent, and on consignment, they only want thirty. So if I get my price, why complain? The percentages the galleries take in Europe are far less than they are in the US, and the clients are better, too, coming from a wide range of countries, including the US, and all the people who can't afford to travel, and just attend openings where they live to drink the wine, have been filtered out.
on Friday, June 9th, walt said
Paul, for the most part I avoid galleries today. I've become very picky indeed. Not that I've got a lot of them to choose from. But the whole process has become quite offensive. There is nothing worse than being treated like you are completely useless, valueless and somehow unclean which is how I feel after most gallery interviews. There is a general sense that because I am an artist I must have no idea about how the current business model works. Again, I'm not blameing any party particularly...its just life. But with the net I have a bit less reason to need them.
By the way, how do you see commissions? Are you being paid by the artist for selling his/her work or are you being paid by the client. In other words are you working for the collector or the artist. In real estate law this is a very important issue in that it defines certain claims and statements the agent can make. And of course in court it defines who is on whose side.
Most artists tend to think you are working for them. But the actuality is the reverse since the artist is useless without a buyer and therefore has little leverage in terms of negotiation.
Anyway, unless, as Olivier suggests, unless I am an extremely important artist (which used to have a completely different meaning 50 years ago than it has today) there is not much to do about it except avoid the relationship altogether.
on Friday, June 9th, Paul Dorrell said
Andrew, Olivier, Walt:
Great observations; your open-mindedness is admirable. Sure there are shyster-dealers out there who take advantage of the system, but the way you've managed to work with it is very cool. It can actually work well, but only if you understand how to utilize it, what to expect, and how to be proactive. Otherwise it can be a disaster.
Boney,
I know a lot of edgy galleries in Chelsea, and KC for that matter, who would disagree. Peggy Guggenheim would have disagreed as well, and she never carried corporate schlock. She was just a pain-in-the-neck to work with.
on Friday, June 9th, Boney said
Consignment works great for corporate schlock!
on Friday, June 9th, walt said
Paul,
I don't blame individual gallerists for the consignment system, although I've had my share of horror stories--many similar to the ones you've mentioned. In fact I don't even really blame artists for letting it happen over time. I don't even blame the general public for being both fickle and ignorant about art. And in the long run I'm gonna do what do anyway. I"ve always managed to find ways of paying for it. Mostly connected to the world of art.
All I'm really looking for are a few gallerists who have the chops to take my art on and actually make some headway. And while I've worked with one or two who managed to do that even though most went out of business (certainly not due to my work which they sold fairly well at the time) I've worked with so many more who were simply lazy or ignorant or who wanted me to do the brunt of their 50% worth. As far as I'm concerned I've already taken the primary risk in creating the art. If I could do the rest myself why would I need the galleries? It is, as someone said, free inventory for the gallery. A smart gallery owner should be able to do something with it more than just hanging it on the wall.
I appreciate the way you say you run your gallery and how you treat your artists. Lets hope your success is infinite.
on Friday, June 9th, olivier said
Paul, I definitively agree with you. Consignments allow more artists, more galleries to have access on a better world of creativity. There is one thing I never did get. Why this 50%, 40% ect flat rate? Every piece every artist is another challenge. You know your customers better than anybody, there are some easy sale other you like but you have doubt to get the X amount to need to have your gallery turning around.
Another example, today I will be glad with a fifty fifty deal with you. Tomorrow, when I will be the most popular artist in the world, it will be another story. If my name bring you customer like you never saw, pockets as big as Andrew ego. I will tell you: I have done the job to be where I am, take 20% since I am interested to an exposure in your area and you will have a another start in your business.
That's what I think, now back to work, I have Bill on the other line
on Friday, June 9th, Andrew said
Paul, you explained this very well. Consignment has worked just fine for me. I have also exhibited pieces in places where they can stay without a rush to sell them, or take them back, like hotel lobbies. On a one hundred ten thousand sale, the commission was a bouquet of flowers for the manager's wife. He said he loved having the piece and was sorry to see it go, and why should I pay for something that he enjoyed having?
With galleries, it's a different story. Overhead is a killer. A hotel manager makes a living from everything besides the art, a dealer has only art and his savvy to put bread on the table. I have never in my life sold pieces to a gallery. I have only done consignment and private commissions, about half and half. Unprofessional? I'm the only artist I know who makes his living solely from sales of his art.
When I opened my gallery, in 1991, I was naive about the art business, three inches above broke, with little capital and no experience. What little capital I did have, I'd saved from running a tree service for eight years. Why a tree service? Because I had to remain free to write my novels, which I never could have done if I'd been scribbling promotional copy for corporations—though the money would have been better.
